Jan. 28, 2021

How To Find And Fix Success Gaps That Lead To Unhappy Customers

How To Find And Fix Success Gaps That Lead To Unhappy Customers

Success gaps are an invisible force keeping your customers from reaching their desired outcomes -- a confusing checkout process, vague product descriptions, or even a broken website. Claire Suellentrop joins Katelyn Bourgoin on this episode of Customer Show podcast.

Success gaps are an invisible force keeping your customers from achieving their desired outcomes with your solution -- a confusing checkout process, vague product descriptions, or even a broken website. Claire Suellentrop joins Katelyn Bourgoin on this episode of Customer Show podcast to explain how to find these success gaps, fix them, and turn them into money-making opportunities. 

On this episode of Customer Show, Claire and Katelyn discuss:

  • How To Discover Success Gaps In Your Buyer's Journey (And Fix Them)
  • What Questions To Ask Your Customers If You Suspect A Success Gap
  • How To Create Marketing Collateral To Fill Success Gaps
  • And So Much More

Claire Suellentrop is the co-founder of Forget The Funnel and is a SaaS Marketing & Growth expert. 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clairesuellentrop

Twitter: https://twitter.com/clairesuellen

Forget The Funnel: https://www.forgetthefunnel.com/resources/saas-audience-research-habits


Connect with Katelyn on Twitter:  https://twitter.com/KateBour

Get Your Free Customer Ranking Calculator: https://customercamp.co/calculator


Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:00:00] So I am Oh, excited to chat with Claire Solon Trop today. So Claire is hands down. One of the smartest marketers. I know every time I chat with her or I get to hear her speak, I learned something that blows my mind. So thank you, Claire, for being here.

[00:00:13] Claire Suellentrop: [00:00:13] Thank you for having me. That was such a nice thing for you to say, you know, a lot of smart people and you are a really smart person yourself. So

[00:00:20] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:00:20] Well, I I'm just humbled that you're here. And when I invited you to be on the show, it was actually a little bit tricky to narrow down which topic we should chat about because I knew that like, when it came to B2B SAS marketing, you could talk about anything. So we decided to zero in on a topic that I think doesn't get nearly enough attention.

[00:00:38] And that topic is success gaps. So Claire for the listeners, who've never heard this term before. What exactly is a success gap?

[00:00:48] Claire Suellentrop: [00:00:48] all right. Let's jump in. So is this a success gap is an experience or some kind of blocker that your customer. W would have in their real day-to-day life that would prevent them from using or finding out about, or having success with your product. And I say products that can also be your service offering or whatever it is you're selling.

[00:01:13] The tricky thing about them is they're oftentimes. Not related to what it is you are offering. They are something that you have minimal control over. You don't have a hundred percent lack of control, but they're tricky to find unless you know how to go about finding them.

[00:01:31] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:01:31] Oh, very interesting. Okay. So to make this tangible for people, can you tell me, is, do you have a real world example of us success gap that you've experienced personally, or that you've seen somebody else experience where you're like, Oh, that's a success gap.

[00:01:45] Claire Suellentrop: [00:01:45] Yeah, yes. Oh my God. I have a super personal one that I'm like dealing with right now. And I'm a very motivated I'm as a customer, super motivated to get over it. But it blocks people all the time. So I'm based in the United States. So this is, this is somewhat related to the specific structure of health insurance in the United States.

[00:02:06]Pretty messy topic. Also we're fairly, fairly boring topics, so we're not going to go into all the details. But the, the, the TLDR is I am really investing in I'm really committing to therapy this year and unpacking a number of things I need to work through for anyone who's ever attempted to.

[00:02:30] Find a therapist and find a therapist in the U S the chore of not only finding someone who you might be a good fit to work with, but also who accepts your insurance is I can't even describe what opinion is. I heard somebody once describe it as someone with a broken leg, having to like, crawl to the doctor's office by themselves.

[00:02:50] Like, it's just, it's just absurd. So all that said an ex a success gap that I'm experiencing right now is I, I found a therapist who I really appreciate her approach. But she is not in my insurance network, which means my insurance will not cover our sessions together. Currently, so I am paying out of pocket.

[00:03:12]Fairly high dollar amount to do this work with this person. It's it's it's financially. It's, it's an impediment. If you don't have the income to be able to afford that. Now I can get those. I can get these sessions reimbursed, but I have to get a recommendation from a, from a doctor that this is warranted.

[00:03:32] Well, I have just moved to well about a year ago. Coming on a year ago, my husband and I moved to a new city in the middle of the pandemic. So I don't have a general doctor yet. So the success gap here for me is desire to go to therapy sessions. Thankfully, I'm very lucky in this time right now to be able to pay for them out of pocket, but it's not a sustainable option.

[00:03:55] Long-term I have to. I have to find a general practitioner doc, a GP doctor. I have to find a doctor that is in my network. I have to find a doctor that is relatively easy for me to get to on a kind of tricky schedule. And then I have to go visit that doctor and get a recommendation that going to therapy is warranted all before I can get these costs reimbursed.

[00:04:18] So. If I were not in a situation in which I were super motivated and willing to pay that cost up front myself, this therapist, even though none of this is her fault would not have me as a customer. Right. And the number of other people who could use her services out there, but aren't able. Aren't able to successfully get access to them is huge.

[00:04:41]So that's a very, like, it's a very in the weeds success gap example, that is something that I'm actually dealing with right now. My, my appointment to meet with a doctor for the first time is still like two weeks.

[00:04:54] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:04:54] Oh, my goodness. I like resonate with the story so much. Like yourself. I've been very serious and motivated. Look into doing therapy this year. Unfortunately here in Canada, none of our, our, our government plan doesn't cover that. So I will have to look into paying out of pocket, but even just finding somebody, you know, I

[00:05:11] Claire Suellentrop: [00:05:11] Oh, my gosh.

[00:05:11] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:05:11] not the kind of thing you necessarily want to post to your whole social network.

[00:05:14] Yeah. So I reached out to some people I trusted that I knew might have some contacts. And then they gave me a list of people and I went on all of their websites and I couldn't get a sense of, you know, what's the price structure. And like, can I do a call like on the phone or do I have to go to their office, their offices and like this other part of the city.

[00:05:29] And just like the, all of the barriers between me being able to sit on someone's couch and get help. It's taught me and it keeps being this thing on my to-do list. And until I ended up having like a really rough day, I'm like, Oh my God, to talk to you about this.

[00:05:46] Claire Suellentrop: [00:05:46] Yeah, like crisis moment that pushes you, right? It's so difficult. Oh my gosh. Yes. I'm so sorry to hear that you are struggling with very, very similar success gaps,

[00:05:56] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:05:56] It just, it's such a great example, this idea that we both want to give money to somebody, we have the money to give. We have the desire to spend it. We have thought about people that might be the fit for it yet. There's still this barrier between actually being able to get those services. That's a great example.

[00:06:14] Okay. So my next question is. Probably now in this conversation, not as necessary, but like, so why are these success gaps so problematic? Let's think about this from the perspective of a, maybe a software company or a product based company. Like what, what will these have stopped you from doing? Why should you care?

[00:06:33] Claire Suellentrop: [00:06:33] you know, I think it's still a very valid question. The big problem with success gaps is, and this applies to the therapy example that you and I are discussing. This applies to a SAS company. This applies to truly, again, anyone offering, offering something for money. You don't know what the success gap success gaps are typically, unless you, unless you have heard about them from your existing customers, because in most cases, the people who want to pay you are motivated to pay.

[00:07:06] You have some interest in what you have to offer. If they're being blocked by these success gaps, then they're not, they're not getting through to you. Right. So it's very easy for six success gaps to be a blind spot for a company because of that lack of visibility into them.

[00:07:21] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:07:21] Oh, that's such a good point. You know what I mean? I think about other buying experiences I've had, whether it's trying to actually make the purchase or something that within the experience, I don't get to the outcome that I want. That isn't necessarily the fault of the company. Rarely would I tell them, like, it's not the kind of thing I'm just going to volunteer or I just kind of grin and bear it.

[00:07:38] So, yeah. Companies probably don't even know what those gaps are. Okay. So let's talk about, you know, the subject that you and I are so passionate about, which is marketing. So how can marketing play a role in helping, you know, potential customers or current customers bridge these success gaps?

[00:07:58] Claire Suellentrop: [00:07:58] Okay. So I'm going to lean on a story that was shared by Justin Jordan. Also a brilliant and very empathetic marketer. She has had head of marketing roles at a number of different SAS companies. But recently my business partner JIA and I had a, had Justine on onto forget the funnel for an interview.

[00:08:18] And we, we discussed a similar topic and she was head of marketing several years ago at a company that  the people using the product day to day were developers or the people responsible for implementing the product were developers, but the decision makers were executives.

[00:08:35] So different set of needs between these two people, developers needed one thing executives needed to know why do we have to buy this thing? Can't you guys just do this yourself. I'm saying guys in a collective way. Can't you just do this yourselves or. Isn't the current version of this same product, just as good.

[00:08:52]So the end users, these developers, this development team who wanted the product experienced a success gap in which they couldn't, they oftentimes couldn't get approval. And so what Justine and her marketing team ended up doing was partnering with. I believe she partnered with the customer success team on this.

[00:09:13] I would have to go re-listen to the interview to confirm that, but what they did was actually created a, how to get buy-in guide that they wrote specifically for developers wanting to get this tool approved and implemented. So the guide walked through, Hey, if you need to get your head of finance on board, or if you need to get your CEO on board, here are the talking points that you can use to make the case for why this is such a great business purchase.

[00:09:38] And that is an excellent example of using marketing collateral to help your customer who wants your product, wants to pay for it. Bridges, success, gap that otherwise you wouldn't really have much control over as a company.

[00:09:52] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:09:52] That is such a smart one. I love that story and I've experienced something similar, you know what I mean? For sort of working with companies and trying to help them to do more audience research, a big stopping point, whether it was a marketer that I was working with, the does freelance work or somebody in house was that they couldn't get their clients with their teams to let them spend the time and certainly not money on doing audience research.

[00:10:12] And so I came up with a similar solution. It was like, I need to put together something to help them get buy in. So for me, it was not nearly as Fabulous is what it sounds like Jordanna created, but it was a, just like a little email template for how to get buy-in. But yes, when you see these gaps and it's like, Oh, it doesn't matter how good I am at convincing this person that they will love the thing.

[00:10:33] If they can't get approval to use it, then you're not going to get them as a customer. So like, that's awesome. Okay. So. We you talked about, sometimes companies won't know what those success gaps are because they're not necessarily even getting through to those prospective customers, but let's say that you have customers like, and they may be also be experiencing success gaps.

[00:10:55] Are there any kind of telltale signs that you, there may be an X success gap in your customer journey?

[00:11:02] Claire Suellentrop: [00:11:02] Totally. So that, from my experience, working with a lot of different company, different companies over the years, The hardest, the hardest place to tell that there's a success gap is when the. The number of people who you were gaining as new users or new customers is not as high as you want it to be.

[00:11:22]That's oftentimes internally misunderstood as well. We're just not doing marketing like big enough. Like we need to run more ads or we need to be doing guest webinars or we need to be doing whatever other tactic that one's the toughest, because. Because of that kind of misunderstanding about, well, a lot of things about messaging and the role of marketing, but to answer more specifically what you were describing, let's say you've got customers who are coming in the door.

[00:11:53] How do you assess whether they are experiencing success gaps? If there is a, if there is a significant drop-off at a particular stage of your customer's experience. That drop-off is an absolute sign, that there's some kind of success gap hiding there and preventing these people from moving forward in their journey with trying and adopting and becoming long-term users of your product.

[00:12:18]The, the exercise of customer experience mapping or customer journey mapping is something that JIA and I talk about a lot and it's some, it's an exercise that we use with sometimes marketing teams. Oftentimes though we, we use this exercise with leaders across lots of teams to help them to help put them in the shoes of what that customer journey looks like.

[00:12:39] So that we can then go and measure how well the company is or is not doing at each of those stages. So an example of this could be I'm moving outside the SAS world for just a moment, but the, an example could be, let's say that, you know, you download a, I don't know, a wellbeing app, like a fitness app or something of that nature.

[00:13:01]And if I'm, if I'm running this company that, that, you know, offers this app and I see a lot of downloads, but I see a huge drop off in usage over time, I will be really interested in what is happening in those existing users lives. That's causing them to no longer use my fitness app. Are they, are they losing motivation because they're.

[00:13:25] Habits aren't supporting their fitness goals. And if so, how can I better help them set and stick to good habits? Is it that, you know, they're going through a difficult time in life? Do I have any control over that? What's, what's happening out there in the world that I can for my customers, excuse me, that I can speak with them and learn about, and then map back to either marketing collateral or in app experiences that better support people through those, those success gaps.

[00:13:53] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:13:53] Oh, I love that. You talked about, you know, can I speak with these customers and learn, because I think you're hinting at one of my next questions, which is what does the process look like? How do you identify what these actual gaps are? You can identify where the follow-ups are. Just probably by looking at some of the data, but now.

[00:14:07] Do you know why those are happening? So walk me through how you figure out the why.

[00:14:12] Claire Suellentrop: [00:14:12] Yes. So I know that you and I are both. Very deep in the, in the, the world of customer research. And we're both big champions of the value of customer research. It can learning about your customers can happen in so many ways. It can be via sending a survey to a large number of your customers.  My my preferred way when possible is to do customer interviews, because the level of depth that you get of, of your customer's story is just unmatched. It's not always possible. So again, relying on something like surveys or analyzing, you know, user behavior kind of, kind of behind the scenes is those are, those are some alternatives.

[00:14:54]In any case, whichever form of customer research you use again, my favorite being interviews is, is critical. It's a, there's a need to get out of the building, so to speak, to get out of your own head and to understand what's happening in these people's worlds. A I know that you have also had bought Mesta on the show.

[00:15:14]Vanessa is a, a pioneer of this entire approach of interviewing your customers and using those interviews to uncover success gaps and over the recent holidays, I finally, after it was on my list for a long time, I finally read one of his newer books, demand side sales.

[00:15:32] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:15:32] That's so good. It's such a good, easy read too. I love when somebody that's as brilliant as he is April Dunford. His book is very similar, is able to take something that could be really meaty and easily sprawl a thousand pages and put it into such a like, you know, digestible format. Is that a delight to read?

[00:15:49] Claire Suellentrop: [00:15:49] right. So you clearly are. I mean, we're reading all the same books. We think that all the same people are super smart. There's there's some excellent examples in that book of when interviews uncovered. A success gap for customers. I'm trying to think of a good one. There's, there's one use case in there where he's working with a housing development company and they're struggling to get the number of home purchases that they need to hit their revenue goals.

[00:16:17] So Bob and his partner interview people who have bought homes in this new development to understand what gaps existed in their experience. And think about moving right. Moving sucks. There's there were so many different gaps they uncovered. Just one example that I won't spend too much time on this, but just one example, being the burden of moving and storing all of your belongings when you're moving from, you know, a large home that you've lived in for decades to this development was small one and two bedroom condos.

[00:16:50]So through customer interviews, Bob and his partner learned, wow. One of the biggest success gaps for our, for our buyers is they don't know what they're gonna do with all their stuff. And so what they ended, what they ended up doing was. Building onto or next to the development storage unit and access to the storage unit came as part of your home purchase costs.

[00:17:13]And the storage unit included a little like seating area where, you know, buyers who were moving into this development could, when they're their children or their grandchildren came over, they could go over to the storage unit and gradually sort through their belongings and start to. Start to downgrade, give some of their items away.

[00:17:32] So that was, I can't, I'm not, I'm not going to get the stats right from the book. The book itself has a better reference, but that had, that had a tangible impact on sales and therefore on revenue. And it's just one great example of adapting your customer's experience in order to overcome one of those success gaps that previously as a, as a housing development, you're not necessarily responsible for, right.

[00:17:58] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:17:58] Such a good example. I love that example and I think it becomes so clear too. Again, it's not something that is necessarily your job to fix, but not fixing. It sounds like it can have a huge impact on your sales. So it's in your best interest to fix it, to find it.

[00:18:16]Claire Suellentrop: [00:18:16] Right, right.

[00:18:17] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:18:17] Okay. So we've chatted about this a little bit.

[00:18:20] So when you're working with teams, you're helping them to map their buying journey. And in that they're starting to kind of identify where there are some places or who might be falling off, or the experience might be causing more friction. And once you've identified those, how do you help with ideas like the storage room?

[00:18:36] Like how, how does, where does that come from?

[00:18:39] Claire Suellentrop: [00:18:39] Oh my gosh. This is where this is where team brainstorming gets really, really fun. So. There's a company that I've been working with for several months now, we're still, we're still in the process of figuring out how to bridge a number of success gaps that their customers have. But going back to that discussion around customer experience, mapping or customer journey mapping when I began working with this company their general manager was already really thankfully really bought into the idea of leveraging customer research to improve performance and.

[00:19:13] Prior to me coming on board, he had guided the team through about, I can't remember the exact number, but about 30 customer interviews. He's also this general manager is thankfully very, very much on board with the same approach that you and I champion. So. They'd done these interviews and he knew the value of them.

[00:19:31] He didn't really have the tools to be able to say, okay, team now take these interviews and fix everything. So my role in coming on board was to help them unpack the insights from those interviews and figure out what needed to be fixed. So we, we took that customer research and using that research, I worked with the head of marketing and the head of customer success.

[00:19:55] They don't have a head of sales. It's a very self-serve product. But I worked with the head of sales and head of customer success and the founder and this general manager to define, and it really wasn't me doing it. It was just me facilitating the process, but to define. What stages existed for people going through this experience.

[00:20:14] And as they define those stages, we also defined KPIs that represented whether or not someone was successfully getting to each stage or not. From there, it was honestly, it was like a magical moment, but from there, once we had those KPIs in place and we. Took specific quotes from these customer interviews.

[00:20:35] And we pasted them into each stage to represent what customers were thinking and what they were feeling during these moments. The ideas based on that customer research just came flowing from the team like the head of customer success. She was amazing. She based on these, these quotes that customers shared about concerns they had had at those stages or objections or reasons they couldn't make a purchase.

[00:20:59] She was like, Oh, This is a great, this is a great space for us to set up a chat on that exact page and answer the questions that people are asking about AB and C or for our high, like, if for those who are looking at the higher tier, we could even offer like a consultation call so that they can make sure they can, they can be, they can be better assured during the trial process that, excuse me that the way that the software is set up is configured correctly for them.

[00:21:26]It was, it was seeing the. It was seeing these struggles or seeing these these quotes describing where people were feeling concerned or where they were feeling uneasy. That triggered just all kinds of ideas from her. And I, I I've, I have found doing that as a team exercise. I have found that to be so valuable.

[00:21:45]It, it gives people a clearer sense of what's a good idea, versus what's just like an internal pet idea that doesn't actually speak to any of those struggles. Does that answer your question?

[00:21:56] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:21:56] Oh, yes. It's so good. Yes. So good. Like all I'm thinking like, as you're talking, I'm like, yes, like this is, I think such a big challenge for, for teams. It's a challenge for marketers who are coming in and working with a team is how do you take insight from the research that you're doing? How do you socialize that with a team in a way that helps them.

[00:22:18] To care about, about the research and to also feel ownership over it. And then also to actually get them to that level of empathy at Bay med, I've been on the calls with those customers. They not, may not have been the one going through, you know, maybe if there's transcription of those calls and picking out all of the nuggets, but the way that you presented that, that back to them, it allowed them to come along that empathetic journey and therefore come up with all those great ideas.

[00:22:44] Like that sounds like it was a huge win for that team.

[00:22:48] Claire Suellentrop: [00:22:48] You hit on something that I think is so critical here and so easy to skip steps on as, as potentially a lone team member who realizes the value of customer research but is having trouble getting other people on board with it. 

[00:23:04] A success gap is other people not understanding the value of that research. And so the more that you can, that you can get other people involved in either running the interviews or just like you said, if not running them, then parsing them and pulling out significant quotes. The more likely you're able to overcome that you'll be to overcome that success gap of people saying, why do we need to do this?

[00:23:26] Why don't we just skip to the chase and like, just do some brainstorms and pick a tactic and get over it.

[00:23:31] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:23:31] Or the other thing that I see teams wanting to do a lot, which is they want to outsource all of the research and analysis and just bring us the insights. But the challenge with that is that like one of these things I say is like, empathy, doesn't travel through osmosis. Like if you really want to have your teams.

[00:23:49] Be empathetic to your customer's challenges and therefore be able to come up with the right solutions, not just the ones that are their favorite pet projects, then they need to actually get to participate in some fashion. And this is such yes. You know, we're definitely on the same page around that, but this idea that.

[00:24:09] You know, identifying this, this guy sass with one person goes off and does this, and then brings them all back to the team and says, Hey, look at these. And just like puts them out on the table. People are going to go, okay. Yeah. But like, if they get to be part of identifying those and if they get to be part of the exciting next step of now, what, like now you've got people who are really bought in.

[00:24:30] Claire Suellentrop: [00:24:30] Right. Yeah. I think you said it perfectly.

[00:24:33] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:24:33] Oh, okay. So let's, let's think about this in the, you know, you know, in a, in a sense of bigger companies, companies that maybe people will recognize and know, do you, are there any examples you know, bigger companies that have done a really good job of bridging some of those success gaps for their customers, any examples that come to mind?

[00:24:54] Claire Suellentrop: [00:24:54] So this is super timely in that this particular style of company has kind of risen to risen to the mainstream or risen to fame in the past. 10 years, I would say like max 10 years or so. A great example of a company recognizing a success gap and investing in fixing it as part of their experience and winning is Casper the mattress company.

[00:25:19] And then every other company that has copied Casper and emulated they're like we'll mail you a mattress in a box model. So huge success gaps exist in the conventional way of going to a mattress store and having a sales person like follow you around and laying on these mattresses and not really knowing what you're looking for and being kind of grossed out and not knowing like, if we take this home and this mattress, you know, socks and my back hurts in three months, like, what do we do then we have this mattress Horrible buying process, right?

[00:25:53] Like horrible customer journey. 

[00:25:55] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:25:55] If you could even find a way to get it home, you have to pay the company to bring it home. Then you try to fit it through your door. Maybe you have a round staircase. There's so many

[00:26:03] Claire Suellentrop: [00:26:03] There's so many success gaps there. Oh my God. It's terrible. Yes. I'm so glad you added the, like, what if I do make the purchase like steps? It's just, it's just awful. I remember making my own purchase like that many years ago, like my first, like I'm a grown-up mattress.

[00:26:20]And the process of getting it up a curved, like set of stairs. Oh, my God. There's, there's so many expletives. So Casper and again, I, I say Casper plus every, every other company that has adopted the box mattress mailed to you model because it works so well. There have been so many copycats Did away with a lot of those success gaps, which is why they now have, again, my numbers are going to be crappy and we should do actual research to verify them, either they are steadily gaining market share year over year, or they have the majority market share while traditional mattress company market share has shrunk drastically.

[00:26:58] Again, a thorough Google search is required. Please fact, check me on that. 

[00:27:03]Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:27:03] Casper is such a good example. I love that you brought them up.

[00:27:05] okay. So at this point everyone's probably wondering, well, home, Holy moly, this is like a huge opportunity. And also like, how do we, if we don't know what our success gaps are, we can't fix them. So now I want to take action. So I know that this is a topic that you and JIA actually have some content on it.

[00:27:21] Is that something that we can refer people to.

[00:27:23] Claire Suellentrop: [00:27:23] Yes. Oh my gosh. So there's a couple of different things that come to mind. So. The approach that we take. And I say, approach there are, as you well know, there are so many different ways to go about learning about your customers and uncovering their success gaps. So dependent on your situation and the customers you serve and so on the type of customer research that's appropriate is going to change.

[00:27:48] But if I had to zoom out a bit, the the approach is essentially. I would say bucketed into the phases of identify where within your customer experience your, your, you have an opportunity to do better. So again, that's looking at like, do we know that our new sign-up rates are okay, but then our conversion from free free users to paying customers is terrible.

[00:28:13] Like there's clearly a problem there. Or whatever else it may be. Maybe we get paying customers, but then they stop engaging with our product, like six months down the line, what is happening? It's, it's, it's a process of identifying where you have opportunity to do better from a revenue perspective in your business, and then doing research mapping out what you've learned from the research in terms of what, what you've learned, your customer's real life experiences and what those success gaps are, and then iterating on.

[00:28:43] Implementing fixes to those success gaps, and then you do it all over again on a cycle. At a high level, we call that approach customer led growth and there was a, there was a write-up done on it. Not too many months ago late last year,  it describes customer led growth at that level in a bit more eloquent way than I that I just have.


[00:29:02]So as a resource is totally free and is a really good primer for just understanding what in the world process I'm talking about. And as a tool for getting other people, you know, within your team or your company thinking about this approach we have a lot of free workshops that talk a little bit more about inner customer interviewing tactics.

[00:29:22] We have free workshops that talk about It's a little bit more detail on what customer journey mapping is and what's involved there. All of those free workshops live on our website at forget the funnel.com/resources. So those workshops are part of a huge library of video content we've created over the past several years to help people with this work.

[00:29:42] And then we also do have a a pro level of forget the funnel that includes a guided much more step-by-step. Program that helps people implement customer led growth within their companies. So we got the easiest, like free bite-sized resource. We had slightly more in-depth free video resources, and then we have actual much more guided support around implementing customer like growth on the pro level total.

[00:30:08] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:30:08] incredible. So incredible. I will link to all of this people. Well, I need to check it out. It's funny as you were talking, it reminded me, I remember where I first discovered what you and geo were working on with forget the funnel. And I was I'm in a Facebook group for startups in Canada called startup North or Northern startup or something.

[00:30:28] And you guys had written an article and you put a medium article and you posted a link to it there. And you said, we're working on this thing. And I remember going in and reading the article and being like, Oh my God, God, this needs to exist in the world as the market. Working with startups there, you identified so many success gaps that were stopping me from being a, be successful to help these companies.

[00:30:51] And so it's really funny that it's kind of like full circle now. That was probably like three years ago.

[00:30:55] Claire Suellentrop: [00:30:55] that's right. And I'm, I'm so grateful that that brought us together.

[00:30:59] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:30:59] I'm so grateful because I just, I think that the work that the two of you do is so important. And whenever I have an opportunity to refer somebody your way, I always do. And so our listeners go take advantage of those free resources and tell your bosses.

[00:31:14] That they need to sign you up for the pro version and forget the funnels. So you get Claire and G has brilliance all like on demand. Are you able to like actually go onto like calls with that Q and A's and really get

[00:31:25] Claire Suellentrop: [00:31:25] Oh, yeah.

[00:31:26] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:31:26] system in your business because you're going to be a lot better at your job and your bosses.

[00:31:32] And therefore we're going to get to grow a lot faster if you have their brilliant support behind you. So make that happen.

[00:31:38] Claire Suellentrop: [00:31:38] thank you for that plug. And I also want to call out that in our free resource library, one of the, one of the past workshops that I send people links to. All the time is the audience research workshop that you did with us. That was a gold mine of getting insights on not your current customers, which we have, again, like plenty of methods for, but a goldmine of information on how to get really good insights from people who you want to become your customers.

[00:32:05] That is truly, and I say this, like without bluffing, that is truly one of the resources I link to the most. It's so good.

[00:32:12] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:32:12] Oh, thank you so much. Well, this has been an absolute treat. Anytime I get, as I said, you know, anytime I get to talk with you, I know that I'm going to learn a lot. I'm really excited now, as we look at, you know, continuing. What we're doing at customer camp, getting back in there and starting to do our, like, we're always doing research, but I feel like I really want to take some of what you've just shared and go in a more exacting way, identify where the success gaps are for us.

[00:32:37] Cause I know we have them and I'm so excited to work on fixing those. So thank you.

[00:32:42] Claire Suellentrop: [00:32:42] Absolutely. And to be quite candid, every company everywhere has success gaps, even within our forget the funnel pro experience, like we have documented success gaps that I am actively responsible for working on and, and solving in this quarter. So it's not, it's not something to think of as like what's the word I'm looking for?

[00:33:06] It's not, somebody's something you think of as like your company just has a problem. Every company has these and they're, it's a, it's a cycle of constantly iterating to make them smaller and smaller and smaller.

[00:33:18] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:33:18] Amazing. So you've heard it here. Folks, go out, start talking within your team, start talking to customers and start identifying those success gaps so you can help your customers bridge them and make more money and get more happy people into

[00:33:31] Claire Suellentrop: [00:33:31] Yes.

[00:33:32] Katelyn Bourgoin: [00:33:32] Thank you so much, Claire again.

[00:33:34] Claire Suellentrop: [00:33:34] Thank you so much for having me.

Katelyn Bourgoin Profile Photo

Katelyn Bourgoin

Host of Customer Show & Founder of Customer Camp

Katelyn is the founder of Customer Camp, a training and research firm that helps growth-ready product teams to get inside their customer’s heads so they can market smarter.

Claire Suellentrop Profile Photo

Claire Suellentrop

Co-founder & SaaS Marketing & Growth expert